Rust in Linux lead retires rather than deal with more "nontechnical nonsense"
Wedson Almeida Filho has retired from the Rust for Linux project, citing frustrations with community politics. Tensions persist between Rust advocates and C developers, complicating integration efforts within the Linux kernel.
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Wedson Almeida Filho, a key developer in the Rust for Linux project, has announced his retirement from the role, citing frustrations with "nontechnical nonsense" within the Linux kernel community. After nearly four years, Filho expressed a lack of energy and enthusiasm to continue addressing these issues, emphasizing the importance of memory-safe languages like Rust for the future of kernel development. His departure highlights ongoing tensions between proponents of Rust and traditional C developers, with some maintainers resistant to adopting Rust due to their familiarity with C. Asahi Lina, another developer, echoed Filho's sentiments, noting that certain C kernel maintainers seem uninterested in improving code quality or stability. Drew DeVault suggested that Rust developers might benefit from creating a separate Linux-compatible kernel to avoid the political challenges of the existing Linux community. Linus Torvalds acknowledged the slow uptake of Rust, attributing it to the reluctance of long-time developers to learn a new language and the instability of Rust's infrastructure. The situation underscores the complexities of integrating new programming languages into established projects like the Linux kernel, where political dynamics often overshadow technical considerations.
- Wedson Almeida Filho retires from the Rust for Linux project due to frustrations with community politics.
- Tensions exist between Rust advocates and traditional C developers in the Linux kernel community.
- Developers suggest creating a separate kernel to bypass political challenges in integrating Rust.
- Linus Torvalds acknowledges the slow adoption of Rust due to developers' reluctance to learn it.
- The integration of new languages into the Linux kernel faces significant technical and political hurdles.
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16 commentsIn addition, the changes needed on the C side for RiL are needed anyways! Lifetimes aren't just a Rust thing, it just makes them forefront. You still need to keep track of them in C, and so they need to be documented since the language sure isn't going to help you. Refusing to document them isn't just harming Rust in Linux, it's harming the long-term viability of Linux in general. When the current maintainers quit, who's going to be able to untangle all that? Bug fixes still need to happen if they're only discovered because someone tried to formalize your interface!
> A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
It's interesting to hear the complaint is "you can't make me learn another language" from someone like Ted Tso. Learning your 2nd language is very hard but at some point it becomes routine, especially since a good chunk of these languages are all Algol-based in some sense. And the main "new" thing is different concepts like functional ways to write programs and various other ergonomic improvements. But really those things just make your code clearer.
I'm curious if this is a case of only getting a single side of the story or not though. I've heard a lot from the rust side, but nothing from the c side of the issue (obviously response is pending.) I'm going to wait on forming an opinion on the limited information currently available.
Learning and mastering a new language and applying it to an existing code base is quite a lot of work. That takes a lot of time away from other things they might be working on.
I think these are mostly (overwhelmingly?) volunteers, so you can't just assign them work. You need to convince them to want to do the work. Doing this shouldn't be dismissed as nontechnical nonsense... it's a very significant hurdle, and one that's directly on the critical path.
BTW, naming and shaming and internet pitchforks are guaranteed to make people not want to do the work, so unless you actually want to kill rust-in-linux, you might want to shut that down.
(Also, I wonder if there isn't a better way to bring memory-safety to the linux kernel. One that is just as effective as rust but less disruptive. The hostile us-vs-them dynamic building up around RiL might torpedo the whole thing, so it might be worth looking for effective alternatives.)
That's how this ends.
And I'm fine with that. May the best solution win.
Rust for Linux had great potential, and would have been a cool alternative to the existing C driven model.
At least eBPF has diverse corporate sponsorship, so drama is somewhat tempered.
Would be great if more companies pitched in to help the FOSS ecosystem, otherwise the only option is an Open Core model.
It's not about Rust or C - it's about transparency. The existing maintainers assume that it is not a priority for them whether they break something downstream or not. They therefore work in a space with interfaces that they can change as they see fit, without giving any guarantees as to their continued existence or wanting to subordinate themselves to a defined change process.
Rust is just a symptom of growing pains. Growth would be achieved if they could agree on common rules which would foster independent development linked by the interface contracts.
Instead, the issue is that established maintainers have grown fond of their zoo and are only pursuing their own priorities in a landlord-like manner. On the other hand, they see new technologies appearing and disappearing on the horizon and have consequently realized that a new technology or language cannot improve an existing system.
And yet they are classically talking past each other.
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