September 24th, 2024

Are there individual protons and neutrons in a nucleus?

Protons and neutrons in a nucleus exhibit complex behaviors, exchanging identities and interacting dynamically, challenging classical atomic structure descriptions and necessitating a quantum mechanical understanding of nuclear interactions.

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Are there individual protons and neutrons in a nucleus?

The question of whether protons and neutrons exist as individual particles within a nucleus or as a single entity is a complex topic in nuclear physics. While popular science often simplifies the concept by referring to a nucleus as a collection of protons and neutrons, nuclear physicists recognize that these nucleons exhibit behaviors that suggest they are not merely distinct particles. High-energy experiments have shown that the internal structure of a nucleus is more intricate, with protons and neutrons exchanging identities and interacting through forces such as pion exchange. This means that, at a fundamental level, nucleons are not fixed entities but rather part of a dynamic system. The deuteron, for example, is described as a quantum state where the identities of the proton and neutron are not definitively assigned. Additionally, models like the cluster model illustrate that nuclear fragments can be interpreted in multiple ways, either as separate nucleons or as a single particle that has split. This complexity highlights the limitations of classical descriptions of atomic structure and emphasizes the need for a quantum mechanical understanding of nuclear interactions.

- Protons and neutrons in a nucleus are not fixed entities but can exchange identities.

- High-energy experiments reveal the complex internal structure of nuclei.

- The deuteron serves as an example of indistinguishable nucleons in a quantum state.

- Nuclear models, such as the cluster model, allow for multiple interpretations of nuclear fragments.

- Classical descriptions of atomic structure are insufficient for understanding nuclear interactions.

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By @Jun8 - 4 months
“By definition, all of the electrons in an atom are indistinguishable, which can arguably be rephrased to say that any electron in the electron cloud is the same electron as any other one.”

For an even more mind boggling idea, see the one electron universe theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40080266

By @mncharity - 4 months
> a single particle with mass and charge

FWIW, atomic nuclei have fun substructure. They behave like inhomogeneous sometimes-oblate liquid drops[1] when large, and alpha-particle clusters[2] when small. I wonder if one could craft an introduction to atoms for kids, with rather more "you don't need this for the standardized exams, but here's a bunch of fun stuff you're usually not shown".

[1] a plutonium fission model https://imgur.com/a/nlwzLyy [2] fig.4 on page 4 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1406.2473 Note wacky bowling-pin-shaped Neon.

By @jjk166 - 4 months
It's useful in the liquid drop model to think of the nucleus as being composed of a multitude of discrete particles. With each particle being an incompressible sphere, the strength of nuclear bonding makes sense as close nucleons interact strongly with eachother while more distant nuclei have weaker interactions, or beyond a certain point no interation, while their electromagnetic charges are not so hindered. It also scales up well for neutron stars, explaining why neutron star density matches nuclear density - in both cases it's just a bunch of piled up nucleons. Isomers make sense as different arrangements of the nucleons, and you can get some isomers with really funky geometries like halo nuclei.
By @morelandjs - 4 months
Physicists model heavy-ion collisions at the LHC using fluid dynamic simulations, and to get accurate predictions of final particle correlations, you need to account for the position fluctuations of discrete protons and neutrons within the nucleus.
By @breck - 4 months
When you are dealing with anything symbolic it's helpful to understand that all symbols are just concepts and measurements [0], and nothing else. You cannot really reduce the world to 2 dimensions. You need 4 for to describe reality, but then the map becomes the universe.

[0] https://breckyunits.com/scrollsets.html

By @fredgrott - 4 months
to put it another way at the quantum level you are not looking at protons, electrons, neutrons, etc... until you attempt to measure one....

Literally something is solid at our level due to how quantum objects behavior gets up to our macroscopic level.

Or if you want to go further down the rabbit hole....Eastern dualism only is useful at the quantum level....not my words....someone else's.....start with Tao of Physics...yes it is reachable to non math people.