Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees.

It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no such thing as a benevolent monopoly that charges fair prices - because fairness does not exist in the market, only competition.

BUT... since fairness gets so often brought into conversations about Apple's fees, often with the implicit suggestion that Apple "deserves" to be compensated for all of the work they're putting into hosting and curating apps and for (in heavy quotes) "creating" a market that they supposedly also don't have duopoly control over: does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does?

Like, if we're going to talk about what's egregious and what's not egregious, charging higher fees per-transaction than the platforms you are hosting seems like it might be a good indicator that things have gotten out of control.

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my supporters. I'm really annoyed by this change, and will start pushing back, but if it happens as planned, I may be forced to switch to another platform, or come up with some other solution.

I remember reading that per-creation billing is a very important feature for Patreon creators, because it removes the moral obligation to produce content just to justify a subscription.

If Patreon really doesn't want to kill the feature itself, but is just responding to Apple's enforcement, then it seems like a really clear illustration of monopoly power - pushing unrelated markets to change their own structure and products just to fit Apple's preferred billing flow.

The world where Apple is just completely fine with Apple users paying $13 instead of $10 for a subscription if they do it through an app is an interesting one.

Obviously this makes a lot of money for them but when you think about it they must think very little of their customers treating them with disrespect like this. This is how 'Tim Cook's Apple' should be remembered.

In my eyes the most egregious aspect of this is it’s a financial transaction between two people that they’re taking a 30% cut of. I see 30% as fine for things like IAP for digital games and such, but somehow in this lens it feels wrong.

One proposal for a compromise that would feel fair: Apple gets 30% of the app creator’s take rate.

IE if patreon’s take rate is 8%, Apple should get 30% of that, not 30% of the full transaction. This could generalize to physical goods as well. It would require more reporting, but would feel more fair in the eyes of the creators and the users.

I run a similar service to patreon where I charge a flat $1 fee on subscriptions, regardless of the size of the subscription. A $50 sub suddenly getting only $34 after my $1 fee and apple’s $15 fee feels wrong. There’s no amount I can reduce my take rate to cover Apple’s take. But I’m entirely ok giving them $0.30 on my $1 take.

Basically - I’m entirely OK having 30% of my net profits taken by Apple. I’m not ok with 30% of my gross.

Since at least the 1980s, IT had the concepts of "open systems" and "interoperation", to support market competition and innovation. And we later did things like the Web and other open standards.

Then Apple comes along, and uses its market position as a hardware and OS vendor, to make a nonstandard software download thing that could've been a Web site.

In parallel, Apple also made open-standards Web apps unattractive on their hardware in various ways. (Often through foot-dragging when other vendors were trying to make Web apps a smooth experience, but sometimes also going out of their way to make Web work worse.) (See also: making kids look like losers to their peers in chat, if they don't have iPhones.)

Apple then imposes predatory rates and terms on other businesses who are pretty much forced to use the Apple proprietary app store, due not to the merits of the app store so much as Apple's dominance of hardware and conflict of interest when implementing open standards.

I assume many consumers don't understand the situation, and how much of an overbearing abuser of its market position Apple can be. Or they have some idea, but pragmatically have to accept it. Also, this affords Apple a lot of money for really first-rate PR.

What I don't understand is why regulators haven't smacked the snot out of the Apple app store, with finality. For example: Apple may only charge a few-percent administration and payment processing fee, and that's it; and they have to permit other app stores with first-class access to the system, as a compromise given the proprietary lock-in mess they've made. (Making them support other open standards better, even to the exclusion of prorietary ones, is more complicated.)

This is the most shocking part to me:

> Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon […] disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

Absolutely astounding that removing transactions from the platform could result in being removed.

I dislike Patreon because they keep making their UI worse over time but that said, I'm furious at apple for this. I like Patreon to allow creators to do per-creation schedule and I hate that Apple has enough power to impact me despite being an Android user (specifically because of these kind of behaviors).

So, to people who say that with only 27% of global marketshare there's no case for an antitrust lawsuit, well if they can impact users outside of their ecosystem, there's a clear case for antitrust.

Absurd. What next, they want a 30% cut from me when I set up automatic payments for my credit card through the banks iOS app?

Let's not forget that if Apple created something called "Apple Creators", they would instantly gain 100% of the market share because there would be no fee (assuming feature parity)

This forcing apps to use your payment platform through extortion is anti-competitive. Full stop.

Why does patreon really have to be an app though? It works just fine as a mobile site and it doesn't do anything complex that would require it to be an app.

And this goes for most services with an app, the main reason they have apps (and try to force their users to use those) is to collect more data from the user as an app has more opportunity to do this than a mobile site.

Of course for a supposedly 'noble cause' app like patreon they shouldn't be doing this at all in the first place.

What a total dick move by Apple. 30% of the money donated to independent creators will now go to Apple, the richest corporation in the world. How is this legal?

I’m a huge Apple fan in general, but this isn’t right. Feels like a leader is getting ambitious, trying to squeeze revenue in a couple quarters instead of building new stuff that would generate new revenue

Maybe they have data suggesting people were using Patreon as an easy way around in-app payments?

Can’t imagine this generates enough revenue to offset the long-term reputation cost among creators (what I would imagine is disproportionately an Apple user base)

Is there a reason why Patreon doesn't just pull out of the App Store? Whenever I got Patreon rewards, I'd just get them in an email notification and the link there took me to the website. Worked great without having to download an app.

I hope the automatic price offset is separated out and labeled in the cart/checkout as "Apple's user fee".

where’s the line between buying something on amazon, ordering a ride on uber, and patreon?

why do some purchases get exempt and not others?

I think it's fair to take a fee for payments through Apple's infrastructure... but 30% is egregious.

It’s odd how Apple picks and chooses where to enforce this requirement.

Netflix has been using their own billing system for years, yet I can still download Netflix on iOS, tvOS app stores.

Makes me wonder if there is an under the table deal between Netflix and Apple.

On the topic of Patreon vs Apple. I am not a lawyer but this seems to have the same basis as the Epic Games vs Apple litigation.

I like being able to cancel subscriptions from the App Store, it’s a huge advantage because companies will usually try to make it difficult to cancel.

This is what the world looks like when you give up the ability to download and install an app from anywhere.

If any part of your face, voice, or any text that is ever written by you, or any kind of software or code you have written, has ever touched an Apple product, you better be prepared to kiss the ring of Tim Cook & Apple if you want to even THINK about making a dollar of it. Apple gets their cut, and yes, if you don't or can't pay they will shut you down. Not even your business account, they will come for your personal accounts, phones and any devices you own or have owned in the past and shut them down as well.

Let it be a lesson to anyone trying to skirt out of paying their fair share, Apple is due AT LEAST 30% of what you make, plus developer fees. If you don't like it, TOUGH LUCK, PAY UP!

611 comments and not a single mentioned yet.

I am not familiar with Patreon on iOS but Why is it Patreon only get charged 30% now, and not previously. After all their competitor also have 30% requirement for a long time, so Patreon had been the special case all these years?

It is unfortunate Google isn't even competing hard. Microsoft doesn't seems to be interested in Mobile any time soon.

I’m getting extremely annoyed that I have to keep paying ~30% more than other platforms for iOS subscriptions.

I’ve already bought the device. I’m already paying for iCloud. How much money does this business really need to squeeze from me?

If I could download and install apps directly from their makers, I would. Just like I can on my Mac.

We shouldn’t let this business model continue.

I think one of the reasons Apple feels entitled to do this is almost monopolistic US market share. People should stop buying iPhones for this, but it's not hard to foreseen it won't happen.

What advantage does the Patreon app offer to iOS users that the Patreon website is unable to offer? Why does Patreon even need an app?

Why does Patreon need an app?

Everyone is focused on the money but I'm mostly fascinated by the requirement to not mention there are other ways to pay.

There is also adsense forbidding you from talking about adsense earnings on pages with ads.

Youtube demanding advertisement friendly speech.

Platforms taking a percentage of second hand goods bought and sold by users don't want you to use the chat to take the deal outside their walled garden.

It all seems so reasonable!

Of course there are also tons of topics you should never mention on HN, X or Reddit but their users guide offers very limited guidance. It is, shall we say, not fashionable to be specific.

Maybe they are all wrong? Perhaps there is room for a more rigorous industry that specifically instructs us how to behave.

We are "secretly" already at the internet cult level of things.

It gets more funny if you hold that thought and picture how the controllers are constantly hammering us with spam. People are so nice they cant imagine outlawing advertisement for the annoying troll it is.

Take this bit from the adsense TOS:

> A "Sensitive Event" is an unforeseen event or development that creates significant risk to Google's ability to provide high quality, relevant information and ground truth, and reduce insensitive or exploitative content in prominent and monetized features. During a sensitive event, we may take a variety of actions to address these risks.

You see? Telling you straight up how to behave is much easier than to try to make sense from this.

I'm to old of course but for the younglings there is still hope.

https://studentsfororwell.org

I suppose they should stop trying to push me into their app then? Every time I visit their site, I have to ignore several messages about how it would be easier to do this in the Patreon app. It’s a mess they could avoid by sticking to a web based app. It still sucks for the creators who relied on them to avoid issues like this.

Taken to an extreme, Patreon just drops the app and requires mobile users to use a web interface. Then what? Apple tells browser makers they have to skim a cut of any payments to any sites and give it to Apple or else your browser isn't allowed in the app store?

This just seems kind of insane to me in that it really burns up a lot of consumer goodwill towards Apple, especially from creator types, who are way more influential than regular customers. And it also seems to invite regulatory scrutiny which could end up killing their golden goose if they are forced to open up their platform and strict limits are placed on what they can charge for facilitating transactions on the platform. That kind of regulatory crackdown is really not unprecedented-- just look what the US did the phone company back in the day, or to banks and credit card companies in terms of interchange fees. This is just extremely silly behavior to engage in from a dominant company.

Why is there even a Patreon app? Should've sent people to the website.

You bought into the platform, so you have to pay by their rules.

Is this going to affect people who don't use patreon through the apple app store?

I only recently started using Patreon (as in giving someone money).

I really never thought of the app and I just went to the website.

Is there some reason to use the app?

I don't feel SUPER bad for patreon here. They're been trying to push people to their app super hard instead of their mobile website. And the mobile website is barely usable.

This is kinda what happens when you put yourself into a situation where you can't make your product work WITHOUT apple or google's store.

I'm a long-time Apple fan and this news just sucks.

Apple have been openly pro-creativity and pro-artist for a long time, and now they're actively hamstringing one of the best online platforms for facilitating that, for... profit reasons?

Maybe the ill-fated "crushing creativity" advert was just the beginning.

The arguments in HN and elsewhere about monopoly seem to be missing the point imo. My problem isn't even with Apple's 30% take rate!

I use Patreon on the web on a non-Apple desktop computer. Apple is simply not part of the equation in my transaction with Patreon. But because of Apple's App Store policy, Patreon has to remove useful features from the web app. That seems like an abuse of power to me.

If you have Apple goggles on and disagree, I ask you to consider a reverse situation. Imagine that your favorite third-party iPhone apps delete features because some other company in charge of some other platform demands it. Technically the app developer could simply pull out of that other platform, but they do the math and conclude they will lose less revenue by degrading the iPhone app and pissing off iOS users. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

"Apps" suck. Use a web ui and tell Apple and Google to shove it. If anti-trust and/or our consumer protestors in various US legislatures won't fix the app stores by breaking them up, the app devs can just drop making apps. I've done many apps and would estimate that 90% have no real need for the API toolkits that Apple and Google give you, they can just as easily be done as "web apps" -- if, that is, everyone dropped the apps and used web apis so cooperation of apps would be based on them, not the toolkits. Exceptions do apply but they are in the minority IMHO.

I don’t understand one part: why can’t a creator just decide to not appear in the app?

Are they changing the donation structure for everyone regardless of their interest of the Apple platform? Why should YouTubers be bothered by this change, for example.

If the App Store is a place where creators can also sell their own content (story apps, etc.).. isn't it a direct competitor to Pateron as a creator's platform, and so should be treated (and maybe regulated) as such? In the manner that Apple need to allow legitimate platforms such as Pateron to survive and compete fairly in the iOS ecosystem?

(A parallel is Netscape Navigator vs Microsoft bundling Internet Explorer)

Lastly, a gentle reminder since I too sometimes slip up and fondly recall the good old six-colored apple... that Apple has been the top 3 largest company by market capitalisation for more than 10 years. They are underdogs no more.

Apple used to create products for creators. Now it creates revenue streams for investors

Could this backfire on Apple? Patreon may not be able to point out to users that they will save 30% if they use the web interface, but thousands of creators will, guiding them along with a few choice words about Apple.

The solution is so fiendishly simple I am astonished not to see it suggested elsewhere yet.

Back when I were a lad, there was this thing called the world wide web...

Apps as a crappy, less capable front-end for what is just a webpage anyway is not a new trend, but it has gotten crappier and stupider over time. Patreon should just pull their app entirely from platforms that behave as predatory rent-seekers and work on making their mobile web interface top-notch. It's not that hard.

I wonder what would happen if a third-party made an app for viewing Patreon content.

Would Apple accept that the third-party client cannot accept payments on Patreon’s behalf and not require the Apple tax?

As a user, I welcome this change if it means it becomes possible to easily cancel Patreon subscriptions with a single click in my device settings instead of having to go through Patreon’s cancellation process. Patreon makes it a completely unnecessary pain in the ass to cancel multiple subscriptions.

It seems like only Apple gives a shit about making things easy to cancel and I find it hard to have any empathy for companies / developers that make canceling things painful.

Due to their app store monopoly, Apple is probably one of the few companies whose version of enshittification often involves enshittifying the products and services of other companies.

So wait, if I donate $1000 to a creator via iOS app, Apple takes $300? That can't be right, can it? Seems like literally robbery.

The only reason I'd want to use a Patreon app over their website would be to play creator's videos on a large screen. As far as I can tell, they don't have an AppleTV app.

This, TBH, is why I've never supported a creator via Patreon, as I have no idea how I'd access a creator's supporter-only content in a way that was convenient for me.

Man I can’t wait to unload this iPhone and finally leave the Apple ecosystem. The watch was the last straw for me. They’ve really nose dived in design and quality. Seeing stuff like this just makes me hate them more. This company went down the tubes years ago and is just running on branding.

The app store is not Home Depot or a book shop or Walmart. Apps are not cars or cans of soda or real estate. Can we cut the bad analogies and talk about what is real? These analogies do nothing to clear anything up and lead to insanely stupid irrelevant discussions about entirely different things.

If I understand it correctly, if I build an Android app, I can offer in-app payments through a variety of integrations: Google, Stripe, Amazon, etc. If I build an Apple app, in-app payments can only be offered through the Apple payment system. Is that more or less correct?

I'll probably get down voted to oblivion because of all the "apple" supporters but looking at all the moves that apple has made, that should be enough to leave their entire ecosystem. Don't be so stingy, the web was not built for one entity to have this much power

Does this scheme also apply in Europe?

Patreon shouldn't need an 'app' to begin with.

We have very capable web browsers on mobile these days.

When ignoring for a sec. the questionable 30% cut and duopoly: In the age of subscriptions, being able to see all your recurring payments on a single page and cancellable with two tabs without questions asked, is a feature worth paying for.

Even if we have to accept all the BS from Apple, at least customers should be aware of the information at the purchase time that they're paying 30% more money compared to other alternative options. This asymmetricity of information is playing good only for Apple at the cost of all the app creators and their customers.

Apple are really such filth. Imagine thinking it's ok to take 30% of every transaction like this, and like they already do on their app store. I don't know how anyone thinks this is ok. It's worse than credit card rates.

Why the F are we letting apple tax 30% of the hard work of people. They do not deserve it. If they had a platform with organic "discovery", maybe 10% would feel less like rape (including processing fees)

Obviously Apple will back down here. They have enough issues with regulators. Their rules currently say any form of tipping has to use in app purchases - so I expect this rule to be changed.

I don't know Google's Android policy for Patreon, but I expect it is or will soon be similar, if the inability to buy ebooks from the Android apps is any precedent.

Walled gardens suck.

How much time do we have till Apple blocks addresses of services that provide web apps instead of iOS apps or just crippling web apps altogether even more than they are now?

>Apple will be applying their 30% App Store fee to all new memberships purchased in the Patreon iOS app, in addition to anything bought in your Patreon shop.

>remember, Apple’s fees are only in the iOS app. Your prices on the web and the Android app will remain completely unaffected.

If this means Apple will take 30% of funds I send to Patreon, then time to dump Apple Pay.

Yet another reason I avoid Apple, seems they are in a race with Microsoft to be the biggest abusers to their users.

Why even have an iOS app in the first place over a simple web app? Is there any additional functionality that the iOS app can offer over web?

Folks that still buy Apple: what are you waiting to boycot this draconian business? Every Apple device you buy feeds this monster.

Did I miss something? Did Apple acquire Patreon?

It’s the same argument for apple, you use our infrastructure host/distrubute/secure/pay, you pay the same.

We need to kill the phone duopoly

A big part of it is restrictive and onerous standards on cellular firmware that act as a compliance moat for Apple and Google (and seem designed to enable surveillance more than anything), but if we fail to get open-source alternatives via commonsense regulatory reform the antitrust guns need to come out. When smartphones are often the only authentication mechanism accepted by major payment providers, workplaces, and other contexts that most people can't opt out of, a (fairly cozy, collaborating as often as they compete) duopoly on viable operating systems is unacceptable

I think we should strive for making all "middle-man" platforms non-profits. App stores should be run by non-profits. Food delivery platforms should be non-profits. Rideshare platforms should be non-profits. I think it's the only way to defend against the natural process of enshittification that occurs when the platform itself is has a conflict of interest from the two parties that it connects.

That goes for Patreon itself by the way - why in the world is a platform for connecting creators to fans itself a for-profit entity? A non-profit would be able to offer significantly less transaction fees - for example, Every.org. There's also the question of what Patreon's "exit strategy" will be...

Apple creating an ecosystem of mobile apps is causing all this. Just go back to the Internet’s universal UI: the Web

Isn't Patreon essentially just a website to pay creators? What added value does the iphone app even provide?

How does it work when I order food through an iOS app? Apple gets 30% of the food order price?

Basic question: does the use of the Patreon iOS app incurs some sort of additional expenses for Apple?

Why do you need an app. Is this downstream of the awful state of american bank transfers?

Next step: if you do any transaction in your smart banking app, 30 per cent go to Apple.

all of this app services stuff and apple can't find a way to stop burning any of its good will, shame really

there's got to a good middle ground where all parties are happy and one where apple's goodwill isn't torched

Patreon should just remove the ability to subscribe from the app, and just offload the process to Safari. Let Patreon users purchase their memberships using Apple's own browser app. Let Apple decide if they want to try to take 30% of all transactions made using their browser and see how that works out for them.

Seems like this just validates the idea that Patreon did not need to be an app. The website works just fine and I doubt people are using the app for discovery or content creation?

I know Patreon wants to capture as much of your time as possible, because they are now on the infinite growth destruction trajectory. So the app is going to stay and they will keep pushing it and probably remove features from mobile web because of it.

Imagine if Patreon was just a for-profit company and not a growth monster.

Do creators have an option to opt out of allowing transactions from the iOS app?

One more reason to avoid app stores and build/use PWA or just web apps.

Already hitting me to the tune of $30/mo. for my family to do laundry.

The article is filled with despicable stuff, but this one stands out:

> Apple’s in-app purchase system, on the other hand, only supports Patreon’s subscription billing model. Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

Apple needs to get the Standard Oil treatment.

I can see a fee for facilitating...but that in my mind is 1% not 30%.

This is so shitty, imagine taking 30% from donations to creators. It should only be 30% from the money that Patreon itself makes off of subscriptions.

What's the advantage for Patreon to have a native iOS app?

If apple was a young startup, struggling to get market share, or struggling to turn a profit, I can understand why they might want a cut of profits here.

But they literally have more cash than anyone in the world... why bother with this?!

Can creators disable payment or delist from Apple users?

403 - can't read it. Patreon blocks Tor network.

I am happy I removed Apple from my business workflow.

just use the web. porn companies do this and they're still in business.

uber / lyft etc i'm 98% certain don't pay apple tax.

How can this go on? It is a tax on innovation

Hot take, Patreon doesn't really care about fighting this because they get more revenue from monthly subscriptions. I'd bet most creators using this model do it because the publish less than once a month and don't want to be charging their patrons for more than they make.

Can’t Patreon just use a link to a website?

Where is Lina Khan when you need her, eh?

They should move to the Epic App Store.

One more reason to stop using Crapple

Non North-American here. I've read that Biden passed a "Hidden costs" bill. Wouldn't this Apple charges account as a hidden cost?

30% is fucking disgusting and the only way they can get away with it is a captured regulator. It’s so despicably greedy and arrogant. It’s like they’re rubbing it in your face that they can do this: “what are you gonna do about it huh?”

Yay. More Enshittification and Chickenization due to monopsony power in a walled garden.

I hate it here.

Any reason why Patreon can't go Netflix/Spotify way? they charge their customers via the web thus bypassing Apple paywall.

As a Patreon user who primarily subscribes on a per-creation basis, I will be ending all of my affected subscriptions if they make this change. That was kinda the whole point of Patreon for me. I can support my creators but only if they actually produce some content. If they take a long break, they don't get any money from me, but they will also get paid automatically if and when they come back.

And yet so many people here seem to think that Apple doesn't have monopoly power, and doesn't abuse their market position.

Go figure.

Not gonna defend Apple here, but I think it's also kinda sucky that Pateon is simply pushing the problem downward to the end users. They should have made a decision to either take the hit themselves or leave the apple store altogether. But of course this is too much to ask from a company who also has a dominant position in the market of creator revenue, so more enshitificacion for everyone.

Fuck Apple.

That is all.

fcking apple... has itself become the IBM of 1984. What a fall!

Shit hits the fans

never build your house on rented land eh.

Not a fan of Apple's policy, but I am a fan of consistency.

It was unfair that Patreon was able to operate on the App Store without paying this 30% cut, it basically gave them a monopoly that no similar Patreon-like platform could compete with.

No mention of suing Apple, no mention of reducing their cut. Doesn't really seem like Patreon has got creators backs.